March 4, 2008

CBS News Covers the Man Contrived Scam Against Saints Called “Church Tithing”.

by @ 5:20 pm. Filed under The Truth Shall Set you Free!

Our brother Dr. Russell Earl Kelly sent me a note, to inform me that CBS News gave full coverage to this continually running scam and lie that is played on saints who simply want to please the Lord. Good that CBS News now allows embedding of their videos, so you can check it out below.

To Tithe Or Not To Tithe?

With the coming economic issues and those that presently exists, now is not the time for saints to be forsaking the needs of their own household, 1 Timothy 5:8 [click to expand link]. Sacrificial giving is one thing, but lying and telling saints to give up medication for the sake of paying 10% is SINFUL.

You can’t HONESTLY give cheerfully when it’s to the point you’re fretting and asking somebody “should I give this much”. YOU are supposed to be able to settle this issue between yourself and the Lord within your own heart and leave it there.

2 Corinthians 9:7 (New American Standard Bible)

7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

The talk of a “curse” is a flat out lie. Those in Christ are free from the curse of the law, Galatians 3 [click to expand link].

Related post:

53 Responses to “CBS News Covers the Man Contrived Scam Against Saints Called “Church Tithing”.”

  1. russkellyphd Says:

    Your post is great. Thanks. They made a fool of Howard Dayton in my opinion. He said that Chritians “with oppressvie bills” should continue to tithe and cut costs in other areas. I guess that means in the areas of food and mediciine. Somebody needs to tell them that the poor did not qualify as tithe-payers either because they were neither farmers nor herdsment.

  2. IndependentConservative Says:

    Well if you got into the details of how what they call a “tithe” does not even come close to the rules for the true tithe, CBS would have needed to give you a 1 hour special 😆 .

  3. speakingtruth Says:

    You’ve been on the frontline on this subject for quite some time IC – it’s about time CBS caught up 🙂

    As a recent escapee from “the plantation” here in metro Atlanta, I can attest on how much this lie is beat into you week after week until you live and breathe it yourself. This is one of the most corrosive lies that the pimps use to fund their sinful lifestyles, and keep the Body of Christ in bondage to them and their “genie” god (“just rub the bible and you’ll get your breakthrough”).

    This subject is controversial in the church – and most people won’t touch it. Yet, when light is finally shined on it, the captives will begin to experience true freedom in the Lord Jesus Christ. We must continue to shine the Light in dark places…

  4. Yvette Says:

    Everytime I see these thieves talk about stealing people’s money in the name of God I am nearly brought to tears. I am neither for nor against tithing, if you have it available and desire to help the church do it. However,God will not punish anyone for taking care of their family. If a person is truly called by God to pastor, He will provide and there will be no need to guilt people out of their money. Can you imagine if Paul after his letters to the churches stated that in order to receive the full understanding and blessings of these writtings the people must each tithe to him first. Or a worse saying, bless the profit, er prophet and get the profit’s, correction again prophet’s reward. These people are evil in that they place upon people a heavy burden.

  5. Praiser4Life Says:

    GIVING KIOSKS! LOL! What will these people think of next.

  6. speakingtruth Says:

    Yvette – I, like you, am repulsed anytime I see this kind of manipulation coming from the pulpit. Of course, what else would you expect from a pimp? I wrote an article about the nature of a pimp on my blog last week ( Once you recognize their work, it easier to get far away from it…

  7. stan Says:

    The AoG church puts out a tract promoting tithing as obligatory on Christians. I haven’t taken the time yet to write up a point-by-point critical analysis of it; but, here are some of my thoughts on this issue.

    One of the strongest ones the tract claims is that Jesus taught it in Matthew 23:23 saying it should be done as well as obeying the weightier matters of the law. But, the ones Jesus was speaking to were the scribes and pharisees who grew herbs and who were still under Mosaic law.

    First, tithes are paid, not given. Tithes are a tax on the two main industries of Israeli society: crop-growers and raisers of livestock. Jesus and the apostles would have been exempt under Jewish law due to their occupations. Carpenters and fishermen were not tithe payers in Mosaic tithing regulations as were farmers and ranchers. The only way they would have tithed is if, for example, they had gardens where they grew herbs like the Scribes and Pharisees did. That is why Jesus said to them “YOU” tithe, not “WE” tithe.

    In Matthew 28:19 we see Jesus say this: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. The operative word in this discussion is “You.” Jesus taught His own disciples alms giving, not tithing. These are very different in spirit and regulation. Alms are gifts to the poor, tithes are payments made to Levites (and, indirectly, to Priests). Alms are any kind of gifts to anyone who is needy, anywhere, at any time; tithes are paid to certain people, to Jerusalem, where the storehouse was, and only at certain times.

    The only tithe that was given was Abraham’s to Melchizedek. This is another common
    “proof text” enjoining tithing on believers, which is also in this tract. Yet, it was given by Abraham from a windfall, the spoils of war. Abraham is not recorded as practicing regular paying of tithes from his own substance, as modern church-goers are commanded by their leadership to do. Yet, all the while they use him as our example. And again, we see Jerusalem as the target city in this first instance of tithing.

    Neither Jesus nor any apostle received tithes from the disciples; but, rather the freewill offerings from private means.

    By the way, modern orthodox Jews do not tithe. They understand the regulations about tithing very well. They say about it, “How can we tithe? We are not in The Land.” They maintain their synagogues and their ministers by freewill offerings, not tithes.

    Christians are commanded to give: To the poor, to widows and orphans, to their teachers/elders/pastors; and to those who spread the true gospel. Buildings and other hard assets and programs; secretaries and administrative staffs are now recipients of tithes. Yet, there is no Biblical support for these to receive them. So, how can tithes be properly called worship in church services, when there is no Biblical support for their collection and for the things they’re spent on?

    However, there is the practical issue of upkeep and staffing and supplies,etc. Since church buildings are the believers’ property, they should have an equitable way of its maintenance and payment of bills. If you do go to a good church that has these assets, don’t stick everyone else there with their costs. Be responsible and give what you can when you can for these things. Since the apostolic doctrine made no provision for the corporate ownership of property, we are on our own to develop equitable ways to do this. Tithing is seen as the equitable solution, with so-called scriptural enforcement.

    On the other hand, staying in a church that has created unreasonable and massive debt in the construction of “palaces,” which are nothing more than expressions of the pride of life, you most likely are looking at a church going astray or just plain apostate. Stay alert.

    Paul, who taught the Gentiles believers the most, never enjoined the tithe on them. The tithe was also not mentioned in the letter of the Jerusalem council of apostles and elders in Acts 15 to the Gentile believers.

    Even though the Didache (a kind of manual) is not Scripture, it gives us interesting insight into what the very early church thought about money. This is given with that disclaimer in mind:

    “Give to every one that asks you, and ask it not back; for the Father wills that to all should be given of our own blessings (free gifts). Happy is he that gives according to the commandment; for he is guiltless. Woe to him that receives; for if one having need receives, he is guiltless; but he that receives not having need, shall pay the penalty, why he received and for what, and, coming into straits (confinement), he shall be examined concerning the things which he has done, and he shall not escape thence until he pay back the last farthing. Matthew 5:26 6. But also now concerning this, it has been said, Let your alms sweat in your hands, until you know to whom you should give.” (Chapter 1)

  8. ncatina Says:

    “With the coming economic issues and those that presently exists, now is not the time for saints to be forsaking the needs of their own household…” IC, you are exactly correct in pointing this out, per 1 Timothy 5:8. I am currently a single Black woman in PHL, relatively new home owner and recently acquired my father’s car after his sudden death last summer.

    Needless to say, the required expenses for upgrades for my house, and repairs & upgrades for a 1994 model car, have been anything but a cakewalk. This is not to mention the ridiculous gas prices that come with a Mercury Cougar. Thank God, through His mercy, guidance and wisdom, recently moved me out of an oppresive WOF church. I recently came into, and stand to get another good sum of money later this week, and again later this year, to cover these current and some future construction expenses for my home. I thank Him for this substance to be able to care for my home properly. It is VERY relieving to not still operate under such oppression (I stopped tithing in September 2K7) where I would have been heavily coerced to fork over nearly $400 in “tithes” this go-around for the sake of upholding a false doctrine. To forego the needed repairs and deferring them to tithes, “first fruits” and such nonsense is beyond stupid. It is within in me to be philantropic (I have extended money and services to people in need), but I have no intention of doing so at the risk of damaging my good credit rating, home and car for the lack of maintenance and care.

    I make specific mention in noting my race in this post (I don’t do it very often) because I see far too many Black women in particular simply hand over what they cannot afford to give for the sake of upholding something that is invalid on this side of Jesus’ sacrifice. It was evident where I went to church and quite apparent in any TV broadcast I saw where, by the thousands, they plunk down funds that have a greater need to supply their respective households rather than the “passa’s” fortress, wardrobe and fleet. In my experience, the people that are paying the most in tithes are doing so living in the worst areas of the city, commuting on public transit with their children trapped in poorly equipped schools being raised on poverty wages.

    There are many in my former church that are, thankfully, waking up from this nightmare and moving forward by leaving. I continue to pray for their guidance and healing.

  9. speakingtruth Says:

    You’re right on point ncatina. I, like you, don’t like to focus on my race, but as a black man I too notice that this false doctrine is fed to black congregations – specifically to feed the lusts of our flesh (if we give then we’ll walk in the same “anointing” that our pastor walks in, drive a fancy car one day, blah blah blah).

    If we didn’t treat God like some cosmic slot machine (i.e. I’ll give a few dollars, pull His arm, and wait for men to “give unto my bussom” 30, 60, and 100 fold blessings), then our eyes would open up.

    Most of us have giving hearts, but we’ve been so brainwashed that we’ll directly walk over those in real need in order to surrender our “seeds” at the “alter” – and trust the pimp to take our money to those who need it.

    Also – and I mean this with no disrespect whatsoever – you’ll notice that most pimps play on the sympathies of women (see 2 Timothy 3:6-7). I believe (and it’s just my opinion) that most men are skeptical to the whole “submitting to a spiritual father” thing (unless they’ve been ordained by their pimp like I was) so they generally chuckle and ignore it, so the pimp relies (and exploits) the giving nature of women to continue the scam…

  10. IndependentConservative Says:

    ncatina, I’m sorry to hear about the recent loss of your father.

    speakingtruth, do you think perhaps the pimps are pulling this “father” line in mostly Black assemblies, to leverage the fatherless home stats to their advantage?

    Paul being an Apostle had some footing from which to speak as a “father”, 1 Corinthians 4:15, although we know even he is not our Father.
    (And when Paul spoke of being a father, he asked for saints to imitate him in ways that are totally the opposite of what we see the pimps doing, 1 Corinthians 4)

  11. ncatina Says:

    Speakingtruth, thanks for your reply. I do not take offense to your “sympathies” statement because, for one, the bible makes mention of “silly women” towards the latter end of the New Testament (sorry, the precise scripture escapes me). As well, the evidence of that is in front of me. My decision-making is more analytical than most (for a woman), so I do not categorize myself with acting on emotion.

    As far as the “submitting to a spiritual father thing,” this is something I have seen enacted by someone I was very close to at one point when, as her father was already dead, simply took on the head AND assistant pastors as her “spiritual fathers” and was imploring me to do the same. It implies that I am too stupid to think and act on my own behest, let alone being incapable of taking direction from God myself. I never fell for this, but there are so many women that either no longer have their father and/or the father/daughter dynamic was so fractured that the “pastors” see this as a means to take advantage and use scripture for justification. Further to that, I saw also told numerous times that the “independent spirit” i.e. “…nobody can tell you nothin'” is from the devil and needs to be cast off.

    Although my relationship with my own father at the time was not the greatest, I was NEVER of weak mind to allow my control to be deferred to someone that, in essence, does not nor has ever had my best interest at heart.

  12. speakingtruth Says:

    IC – I DO believe that the pimps are exploiting the high amount of absentee fathers in the black community. You and I both attended Club New Birth for some time (and I was ordained at one of the offshoot churches here in the ATL). I’m a black man with an MBA and yet I was still sucked into this “spiritual father” garbage because of my own fractured relationship with my natural father.

    He was in the house when I grew up, but he was emotionally absent (we’ve since reconciled), but I was drawn into Eddie Long’s “I’m your daddy” hype like many others. In the church that I recently fled from, most of the non-ordained men (who grew up in 2 parent in-tact homes) looked at all of us “sons” like we were crazy for running around behind our “daddy” (notice the parallels between what we called our pastor and what a prostitute calls her pimp).

    I had to repent for such foolishness – and I’m still kicking myself for ever falling for it. You’re right, Paul clearly spoke of being a father to those who he birthed in the ministry because he was responsible for pointing them towards Jesus Christ. Paul was busy building an army of believers that would spread the Gospel across the world – not some mini fiefdom that would deify him.

    We simply can’t imitate these pimps in a father-son relationship because they’re aren’t imitating Christ…

  13. ncatina Says:

    IC, thanks for the condolences. To inteject briefly on your question to speakingtruth, I have spoken to a good friend recently that told of this type of activity going on in another congregation I was once part of.

    I would not be surprised if this “fathering” trend is a point of leverage in the Black churches for the sake of interjecting themselves in the fatherless homes for their exclusive advantage.

    Since there is already a demonic intrusion on the congregants’ money, sexual access and mind, your posing the question would not be a far-fetched reality.

  14. speakingtruth Says:

    I too am sorry to hear about the loss of your dad.

    I’m highly analytical as well, and yet I towed the “spiritual father” line out of ignorance. You’re right – when you express independent thought you are accused of operating with a demon. I recently fled the plantation and my former colleagues in ministry were told by my former pimp that I was being disobedient to God because God would’ve told him that I was leaving before I ever came to him. My reply was that he was ignoring God for quite some time, so why would God tell him anything else?

    I’ve tackled some of the spirits I’ve encountered in the church on my blog (, and I’m constantly hearing from people who are still there but feel that they can’t leave. This is just an invitation from God to intercede even more in prayer for those who are lost…in the church.

  15. stan Says:

    Yes, unfortunately ncatina, as you know, sins come in multitudes. God help them.

  16. IndependentConservative Says:

    speakingtruth said:

    I recently fled the plantation and my former colleagues in ministry were told by my former pimp that I was being disobedient to God because God would’ve told him that I was leaving before I ever came to him. My reply was that he was ignoring God for quite some time, so why would God tell him anything else?

    Speakingtruth, can I say who this pimp is by name? People should know. Don’t be afraid to call him by name. He’s hurting saints! And he’s obviously still acting like he and God are on a regular extra-bibilcal level of conversation. The man has something speaking in his mind as an “angel of light”, not God though, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15.

    And he’s got a little of this too.

    Colossians 2:18-19 (New American Standard Bible)

    18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

    19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

    He can’t hold to THE HEAD, because he fails to properly hold to SCRIPTURE.

  17. speakingtruth Says:

    @ IC – alright…you just can’t help but stir the puddin’, huh :-)?

    You’re more than welcome to expose him, as I believe you know who he is (the one who just opened a new church building in Hampton, GA (Henry County)…

  18. stan Says:

    My opinion of American Christianity has been altered dramatically over the last 5 years or so, especially since the Lord awakened me to what is going on. It is sobering to realize the depth of error and abuse going on behind the closed doors of innocent-looking churches. It seems too, that the larger they are, the worse they are. The larger they are, the more financial oppression there is on their people.

    I don’t condemn them all, because I believe there are the “7 thousands” that have not “bowed the knee” to mammon; or who have repented of this oppressive teaching.

    I used to teach tithing in my own church, like a good little sheeple. And, I practiced it faithfully, too. I challenged the people to “prove God in this.” I repent of such abuse. And, I ask God not to hold that against me and to keep me from any kind of abuse of those He gives me to minister to.

  19. stan Says:

    It’s interesting to realize that tithe defenders will view this video as a satanic attack on the church. Yet, the church needs to look at the issue themselves and police it themselves instead of waiting for the world to notice the abuse and make comment. Their motives are probably not pure at all; but they serve the truth in their own way, inadvertant as it may be, nonetheless. In a very real way, their doing this is a shame to the church, who is supposed to be the pillar and ground of the truth.

  20. IndependentConservative Says:

    I’m still kicking myself for ever falling for it

    Rather thank the Lord He got you out of it and only allowed you to experience enough of it to help someone else.

    Regarding calling anyone father, I’m going to follow the suggestion from Christ.

    Matthew 23:8-12 (New American Standard Bible)

    8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

    9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

    10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

    11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

    12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    If any man looks at me and suggest I should view him as “daddy” other than my biological, I’m heading the other way!

  21. IndependentConservative Says:

    That pimp André Landers, who is the understudy of pimp Eddie Long and the offspring of Club New Birth needs to go do a study of Matthew 23 and repent! And since he’s got Long’s ear, he should suggest Long do the same.

    And he needs to stick to scripture instead of acting like those voices in his head are the Lord. He’s running THE EXACT SAME GARBAGE his teacher Eddie Long does, Luke 6:39-40.

    He also needs to learn the different commands of the different covenants and who they apply to.

    It would all come so much easier to him if he ignores that man he calls “daddy” and just took the lumps that come with breaking from that bunch!

  22. IndependentConservative Says:

    Oh my, Landers had pimp George G. Bloomer in for a special event!

    If you want to see pimp Bloomer is action, check out his demo video on his Word Network page. They even added graphical effects to when he’s slapping people on the head, BAHAHAHA!!! 😆 .

    That pimp is FUNNY! I mean Psalm 37:13 the Lord is laughing at him kind of funny.

    And look at Bloomer spinning and claiming prosperity! He went on a fast 😆 . I was hoping Bloomer would say he gave them some chicken when he found they were starving, but the voodoo workers had to feed them 😆 . I wonder if Bloomer gave them a little something to help them keep eating once they were done with the chicken? I hope so!

    People should run from these pimps like their SOULS DEPEND ON IT, because they are being given a false gospel that can kill their spirit.

  23. SteelGator Says:

    I am a proponent of tithing. I think tithes and offering should be a part of every Christian’s walk. However for a preacher to tell his congregation that God requires them to give 10%, period is wrong. I don’t see where this is shown in the Bible. God may call you to give 1% or 90% of your gross income. That is between you and God. the Holy Spirit will guide you and show you when, how and what to tithe.

    If a preacher or some other minister tells people to forgo medicine or food in order to tithe, this is out and out wrong. He/she will be held accountable for this false teaching.

    As for Crown Ministries, they do have some excellent financial tools for Christians to use. I disagree with them when they say a believer must tithe a minimum of 10%. However, God wants us to give, but instead of relying on the words of man, we should rely on God to tell us how much.

  24. stan Says:

    IC, I found this text of a zoning board meeting where this new church pastored by Andre Landers is going.

    One observation that I made is that this large church of 1100 (at the time) plans to grow to 5000 in a few years (the time being Sept 2004), is situated on over 42 acres in a very rural community. Some next-door neighbors to this project had some concerns. The big question was over traffic impact on a rural road.

    This shows a microcosm of the impact of mega-churches at times. They can disrupt a community in a way that is not over spiritual matters. Churches do not pay taxes, yet, communities must bear the burden of the extra noise, lights, and traffic with the threat to public safety large traffic patterns can create. Suddenly, a community with a very few minor accidents and/or deaths over traffic, has a strong potential of an increase of these things due to this activity.

    If local businesses or tax revenues were favorably impacted by new traffic from mega-churches, then their presence helps offset the burden.

    One point made at the meeting was why didn’t they choose a less rural setting. The feeling I came away with is that it is like an invasion.

    According to the New Birth website:
    They have grown to 8000. Even more rural community impact -more building. Are they moving or expanding within the 42 1/2 acre property?

    Of course, they believe it MUST be God who is growing them. Interesting conclusion made when God says that only the few find life. The many do not. So, who do the 8000 represent, the many or the few? I don’t say there are none saved there; but are so many of them saved and growing? When 8000 were saved in early Acts, that happened when they were smitten to their hearts about a crime of the most enormity that took place in their midst concerning the vicious death of the Prince of Life, the Creator Who had visited His inheritance. They grew due to the Apostles’ doctrine and during apostolic persecution from the killers of the Lord. Is that why New Birth church is 8000 and growing? Care to compare?

  25. speakingtruth Says:

    IC – you must be reading my mind because I was going to talk about the same thing. I actually tuned into the Streaming Faith broadcast when Bloomer was coming. I was in prayer that Bloomer would call the demonic spirits out of the leadership and the place would be transformed!

    Needless to say, I was disappointed. Bloomer puffed up Landers’ head (“this place has you written all over it”…”you did a great job”…”don’t give me that false humility about how God did it – you did it”…etc.). He then went on to say that he was going to be “speaking in the prophetical tonight, and unless your retarded, you should get the blessing that will be released”. I know – I almost turned it off right then in anger, but I suffered on.

    He prattled on for awhile, then he said that God wants to release a special anointing for business owners. He said that if you give at least $500, then God would “increase your business by at least 30% in the next 30 days”! That’s when I finally threw in the towel.

    Needless to say, many people lined up to give their $500 “seed offering”…

    And to think – I thought Bloomer was one of the good guys (I still have his books on spiritual warfare and withchraft in the pews)…

  26. speakingtruth Says:

    @ Stan –

    I was a member of that congregation, and when the plans went before the zoning board there were over 12,000 members of the church. In later minutes, they were accused of intentionally misrepresenting their size in early meetings (the lawyer stated that they only had 1100 members) and the lawyer and Church Administrator apologized to the zoning board for the “error”. Now, membership is down – and although the building opened up a few weeks ago they’re already running into “revenue issues”.

    I wrote an article on the mega church concept last week ( – especially as it relates to the “New Birth Family of Churches” (as they’re known as).

  27. SteelGator Says:

    Jesus never paid the tithe but he did pay the tribute.;&version=9;

    As for the tithe, why did God include it in the Old Testament if we as Christians are not to do it nor use it as a guide for how we should give? God put it in there for a reason.

  28. IndependentConservative Says:

    Stan said:

    This shows a microcosm of the impact of mega-churches at times. They can disrupt a community in a way that is not over spiritual matters.

    He’s doing exactly what his “daddy” has done. You should see the mess Eddie Long’s club makes of its surrounding area with traffic, but they claim they help pump money (not Christ) into the community. I don’t know how many sermons I heard from Eddie Long, talking about how he wanted to build up the area’s businesses and junk 🙄 . He’s supposed to be the guy preaching The Word, not playing Donald Trump! But that false prosperity doctrine causes it all to become a mess, just like the traffic!

    The feeling I came away with is that it is like an invasion.

    Because it is. They see what they want and they go for it. They are of the Christian “dominonism” mentality. That they are to dominate and rule!

    speakingtruth said:

    I was in prayer that Bloomer would call the demonic spirits out of the leadership and the place would be transformed!

    You’re missing that would require Bloomer calling out HIMSELF.

    He prattled on for awhile, then he said that God wants to release a special anointing for business owners. He said that if you give at least $500, then God would “increase your business by at least 30% in the next 30 days”! That’s when I finally threw in the towel.

    Needless to say, many people lined up to give their $500 “seed offering”…

    Just call him WONDER PIMP. A big pot of greed in full operation! Trying to pull the arm of that “slot machine jesus” 😉 .

    I personally recommend you let every book you own with Bloomer’s name on it find the inside of your trashcan. The trashcan outside of your house, not the one in the kitchen. You see he’s no good. I want you to read Stan’s post about The New Apostolic Reformation. I think you’ll find some similarities you need to be aware of.

  29. stan Says:

    Wow. Thanks for that clarification, speakingtruth. I work in tax preparation. To have an “error” of that magnitude in our line of work would take more than an apology to correct.

    I am at a loss to understand this though. According to the transcript, a Mr. Charles Smith speaks for the church. Here is that section:

    Chairman Schafer: “Now, Commissioner McLeer had mentioned in his notes, this is a five thousand (5,000) member church. Is that correct?”
    Charles Smith: “No sir.”
    Chairman Schafer: “Or do you anticipate it to grow to 5,000 members.”
    Charles Smith: “We anticipate it to grow to 5,000 members over of a time period.”
    Chairman Schafer: “What is the current congregation size?”
    Charles Smith: “Eleven hundred (1,100).”
    Chairman Schafer: “Eleven hundred (1,100). Now, with what you are planning to build here, do you plan to build this facility at one time, or do you plan to have phases?”

    What I’d like to know (if you can tell or remember, if you don’t mind my asking) is who is Charles Smith and were there no other members or church officers present at that meeting who could have corrected that “error” on the spot?

    The conditional use (CU) was based on what was said in that meeting as well as other documents that zoning board had in its possession. The impression of how 1100 impact traffic versus 12,000 (or 8000 now) is quite enormous. It looks like an outright lie designed to mislead the board. Unless there is some reason for that verbal gaff, I am sure that the neighbors are thinking the same thing I am saying. Great witness for Christ.

  30. IndependentConservative Says:

    SteelGator – Brother, you are still under a bit of deception, I mean that with love.

    Show us where an Apostle of the Lord Jesus told someone to tithe? Have you read the comments made here? Have you read the related posts and the referenced material in this post I asked you (everyone) to read?

    I don’t say this to shame, but you are speaking from a wealth of misguided ignorance and many of us used to be where you are now. I highly recommend you study some of the information provided to you freely and discontinue babbling vomit you don’t even know stinks.

    God included burnt offerings in the Old Testament too, where is yours? What about heave offerings, do you do that also? How many relics of the law do you wish to heap on yourself SteelGator?

    You cite Matthew 17:24-27 as some sort of proof text of paying a temple tax. Do you NOT SEE that the scripture you’ve cited speaks a message TOTALLY OPPOSITE to what you claim it says? Jesus had Peter get the money from the mouth of a fish AS A SIGN OF DISRESPECT TO THEM REQUESTING IT. (It was a very small amount of money, trust me, even the treasury of Jesus could have paid it easily without going to get it from a fish.) He only gave it to keep them calm for that moment and made it clear to Peter they are hypocrites for asking anyone for anything, the children go free, yet you claim saints should pay some temple tribute tax that is obsolete! We are the temple, NOT A BUILDING. Christ paid “not to offend them”, not because it should have been paid. Jesus was not moving to pay it and only paid when Peter was pressured to do so.

    SteelGator, I HIGHLY recommend you just stop talking here and take AT LEAST 2 weeks studying the material given to you freely. Did you even bother to click the first link in the post above, CLICK IT? Read and learn something brother.

    Also check out

  31. speakingtruth Says:

    @ Stan –

    I’m not sure who Charles Smith is, but he could be a member of the church. I’m not aware if any else was there representing the church – which is why the “error” was originally made and corrected at a later date. I may be naive, but I don’t know if it was willful fraud in understating the amount of members that attended the church, and the impact they would have on the surrounding area.

    It’s a shame because it was a quiet community with a two lane road that wound through the country. Now, they’re experiencing traffic jams that you wouldn’t believe – and the residents are lined up on the road videotaping the “evidence” for future county zoning board meetings.

    Meanwhile, the original location (housed in a perfectly usable office park) in Clayton county (GA) sits empty while everyone floods into the new edifice.

  32. IndependentConservative Says:

    Charles Smith is likely an attorney, as the minutes states that he said of himself:

    Charles Smith: “My name is Charles Smith. I am here representing Andre Landers with the item just stated. I am here before the Board to obtain approval on the 42.5 acres that you have just discussed concerning the church.”

    Probably a lawyer.

  33. stan Says:

    The temple tax was a poll tax of a fixed amount of a half a gold shekel. The rich did not pay more and the poor did not pay less. It was for the upkeep of the temple. It is taken from Exodus 30 and called the Ransom or Atonement money. It bears no resemblance to a tithe, except as a required tax. It differs in that all Israelite adult males paid it, not just farmers and ranchers. No woman paid it. It was collected once a year. In Jesus and Peter’s case, it did not come from their personal means, but from a supernatural resource. How they paid it in other years, we don’t know, unless they did the fishing thing each year.

    The closest thing we could borrow from the OT is the freewill offering, not the tithe. There are simply too many regulations concerning the tithe to appropriate it into Christian thinking without disturbing it. We are not allowed to do that to the word of God. We are merely taking the general idea of tithing and must ignore every regulation concerning it.

    I do feel that you may tithe if you want to, but it cannot be made obligatory upon all believers. It must be freewill and cheerful. It should go to the poor and certain ministers, not to expensive church assets.

    In some cases, Jesus demanded a person’s entire wealth to be given away to the poor in order to follow Him. Some do that today. However, Paul does not tell all the rich in 1 Tim. 6 to give away all their wealth, but he does have them commanded certain things, both in attitude and practice.

  34. IndependentConservative Says:

    The church always gave based on need. Many saints had communes because of needs of poor saints and they made themselves financially equal as a group. Paul as you mentioned Stan in 1 Timothy 6 tells the rich (and that was to saints mainly in Ephesus at the time) to give and be ready for good works, but never fixes a percentage, also in 2 Corinthians 9:7 never is a percentage suggested to saints in Corinth.

    What you won’t find in scripture, not even Hebrew scripture is a case where anyone paid 10% of money wages from labor, it never happened.

    The word “tithe” was never given to the church by the Apostles, so I see no reason to try and place it on the church at all. Let each REALLY give as they purpose in their own heart, free of any suggestions or claims they need guidance in some suggested amount. That is compulsion to give a certain amount, or feel shame for not giving that much. Let each give freely and leave it at that. Just like nothing of a sort of “tithe” was ever given to the church, neither was a burnt offering, heave offering and so on. So those things should not be placed on the church at all, not even suggested. If the people are free from the law, let them be free and don’t suggest the yoke.

    What is called church tithing is noting but a man contrived system of greed, period. They cherry picked a fixed amount that had claims of a “curse” for not paying and said nothing about how even that system featured exemptions. When you have debt, you have no increase. Meaning most everybody would be exempt under the tithing system of the Law.

    Church history PROVES that this thing that is noting but a FARCE DID NOT EXISTS till later in church history WHEN IT WAS MADE UP. Literally hundreds and hundreds of years AFTER the early church. A system of GREED that continues today. Even with those who use it for charity, it’s still a POWER TRIP, to guilt people out of a fixed percentage. It is only one thing, evil. Let the children of God be free.

  35. IndependentConservative Says:

    I’m not saying everyone who request a “tithe” is evil themselves. Many people do have the best of intentions and instruct it out of ignorance, but it was contrived by man and not given to the church by Him.

    It is an evil now to place yoke in some form of the law on anyone. Don’t even suggest any fixed amount at all. (Who is suggesting we do a burnt offering to the Lord?) Let God’s children actually give as the Lord leads them.

  36. stan Says:

    To speakingtruth:

    I may be naive, but I don’t know if it was willful fraud in understating the amount of members that attended the church, and the impact they would have on the surrounding area.

    I am highly suspicious about what happened at that meeting and, as you can see, I am a bit interested now. Also, I lived in the Atlanta area and in Gwinnett county in 1973-75. I was saved in May of 75 down there. I live in New Jersey now. I remember the area with fondness, and miss it so my interest is somewhat personal too.

    My interest is also because I served on our church board during a moving and building phase in the early 90s. We accompanied our attorney to the zoning board to represent the church as part of our job. An outside lawyer does not know everything he needs to know about a church, nor can he answer intimate questions concerning the church at such critical meetings, so our attendance seemed crucial, as well as natural.

    I know you may not be able to answer my questions, but I’m curious about what relationship Mr. Smith had with the church. Was he a member? Was he local? If he was local, how would he not know of a 12000 member church in his area? A 1100 member one is easier to escape notice, which it wasn’t. Did he ever visit the old facility and see it was a mega-church? If he was out-of-town, why was he selected?

    How did Charles Smith acquire that number 1100? He was quite definite about it. In a 12,000 member church I find it impossible to believe that no member attended that September 2004 meeting. It had public notice like all such meetings. It would have been known among the membership just from that. In every church, there are always people who have an active interest in community matters. Among 12000, you’d have plenty. Somebody would have gone. Something does not smell right at all to me. Frankly, I am stunned at this issue.

    By the way, how far away from the old facility was this new one on Mt. Carmel road?

    It’s a shame because it was a quiet community with a two lane road that wound through the country. Now, they’re experiencing traffic jams that you wouldn’t believe – and the residents are lined up on the road videotaping the “evidence” for future county zoning board meetings.

    No surprise. This alone ruins their witness with these residents, big time. They must feel betrayed and embittered no doubt. You can bet they talk about the church all the time in derogatory terms. This is bad.

  37. IndependentConservative Says:

    I just wanted to point this out from the video:

    “Protestants, both mainline and evangelical, have since the 1870s, fixed upon the tithe and on this Malachi passage as a kind of law that has never been repealed,” explains James Hudnut-Beumler, dean of the divinity school at Vanderbilt University.

    Yes, only since the 1870s, as a way of making up lost revenue.

    Now if you speak of there being such a thing before 1870, guess who’s history you’re talking about, THE CULT OF MARY, ROMAN CATHOLICISM. And even the cult of Mary didn’t do it till some time after they got going.

    So if Christians were commanded to tithe, even recommended, even suggested to pay 10%, what was the church doing before the 1800’s? (And cults are not Christian or “Catholic”, but that’s another topic. The cult of Mary that is called Roman Catholicism doing it first should help some realize it was made up and unbiblically contrived for MONEY. For more on the cult of Mary, see here and here.)

    Folks, what is called “church tithing” was MADE UP. A man contrived thing, for MONEY. It is a repeated LIE that goes generations.

    Let God’s children be free of this contrived yoke. It was not for the church and even our history proves it.

  38. speakingtruth Says:

    @ Stan –

    Unfortunately I don’t the answers to many of your questions. This church is an independent church, and there is NO structure for accountability. The pastor is the “final authority” in this church, and he is unapproachable by any of his ministers or elders (which is completely counter to Scripture).

    I’m sure there were members in the audience for “moral support”. The 1100 number came about as a discussion of how many people (on average) attend each worship service (3 services on Sunday plus Wednesday night bible study). I beleive that the attorney misspoke, and just stuck with his story (as lawyers are known for doing :-)) and the number had to be corrected at a later date. Also, some of the leadership of the church work in county government (non-elected), so maybe that “greased the wheels” a bit. BTW – the new church is about 15 minutes from the old facility.

    @ IC – you forgot to mention that Landers drives a Bentley (the pimpmobile of choice) and is building a million dollar house (complete with gates with large “L’s” on them) about 25 minutes from the new church (his current home is only 4 minutes away from the new church). All the while, the school district in the county that he’s moving out of is about to lose it’s accreditation (, and housing values have declined by $51K on average.

    But hey, forget all those troubles, gotta bless the “man of God”, right?

  39. speakingtruth Says:

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – God wants us to give to the needs of the ministry (the TRUE spreading of the liberating Gospel of Jesus Christ), and to support those around us (both in and out of our own houses). He DOES NOT want us propping up these petty dictators and those others who have made a profession out of pimping the Gospel.

    My wife and I were having a discussion the other day about how pastors used to work “regular” jobs during the week, and they’d preach on Sundays. Now, you’re looked down upon if your a pastor that shuns this sinful lifestyle by choosing to actively NOT use it as your source of income…

  40. IndependentConservative Says:

    Yea Landers just like Eddie Long is running a bogus retrofit of the Mosaic model. As in Landers/Long are the “final authority” of their spot. They claim to “hear from God” (they seriously act like they have 2 way vocal conversations with God) and also get “revelation and visions” about what to do, including bogus money scams and bogus prosperity messages. Many a Sunday Eddie Long would tell us he could not prep all week for a sermon because “Gawd had not given” him anything and then suddenly late Saturday night Gawd gave him the message 🙄 . We know he was finding some of it online now. They even claim authority over choosing their own successor. Nothing resembling a church at all, but most are not reading scripture enough to notice.

    Lander’s got a Bentley! Yup pimps love Bentley and Bentley loves pimps 😀 . And Satan enjoys them getting as many as they please. I guess Landers feels he’s small beans since he does not have a Maybach like Eddie yet.

    Yea I know about Clayton County’s issues. And of course Landers is pulling up stakes, but he’ll keep pimping the pockets of people in the area.

  41. art123 Says:

    Anyone with any discernment at all whether you’re saved or unsaved see that if your pastor has a mansion and you’re struggling
    financially, something is wrong with the church of today. That’s dangerous because once people see that they’re not getting
    ‘blessed’ like the mand of gawd, people would wonder in their hearts what kind of god they’re serving which can cause
    stumblingblocks. However, it is our responsibility to read the word of God and develop a relationship with Him. We all do
    not beat to the same tune nor drum when it comes to life and riches isn’t for everyone. Therefore, they can take this prosperity
    gospel and shove it for it is a shame that people are going into their graves with this lie. God ATM, give me a break.

  42. ncatina Says:

    Gee, Art123, tell us how you really feel….LOL!!

    However, you are right, and I totally agree with you. With the wake up calls that these blogs and the secular media are putting forward, this will only hasten the exodus (no pun intended) of those that are waking up to the realization that they will not get their “breakthroughs” and blessings. These hard economic times are not yielding any mercy–latest per barrel crude prices: $105+. Therefore, people need to be as prudent as ever with their money and where it goes, ESPECIALLY the church.

    Yes, it is only by the cleansing blood of Jesus and studying the Word, while paying attention to what is going on around us, that people will keep from getting shammed. Then again, because many people in these environments are trained not to watch the news, they will likely NEVER get a clue as to what is happening until it’s too late.

  43. godlysoldier Says:

    I thank God that the Holy Spirit and such blogs as these opened my eyes to the man made system of tithing with a few out of context biblical scriptures slapped on it. While I know part of it was due to my “greedy heart” wanting to treat God like my personal “jenie” and also wanting to be “blessed to be a blessing”
    (yeah right) I do pray that others still being sucked into it out of biblical ignorance will be set free.

    I just happened to read on a blog yesterday that Randy White has put Without Walls Int’l Church up for sale. Some of the board members were not even aware of it after just seeing Randy a few days before. Some members comments were of shock and others (which I believe are still in “spiritual darkness”) were defending him saying that God must be moving them into a bigger and better facility! The Whites took a $12mil loan to build the place and has it up for sale around $30mil.
    Now if I was a “tithing” member there, already knowing the issue they are facing with Sen. Grassley, I would be thinking, where is my money going, and why the “for sale” without any mention to the congregation, also, where is my 30 60 90 fold blessing due to come in. My heart felt so bad for the members that’s still involved with that church and pumping money into it. Words just can’t explain how the sheep are being deceived by pimps with this tithing issue.

    I’m not in a church home right now, but God has led my family to give directly to an organization that feeds the homeless and kids. We will continue to give to them until God tells us otherwise.

    IC, thank you and others that are continuing to contend for the faith and used by God to help a sister like me continue to rid my spirit of 10 years of WOF JUNK and enlighten me to the truth. I don’t post often, because there is still so much I’m “re-learning” and studying for myself to rightly divide the word of truth. Continue to pray for me and my family as I pray for you all.

  44. SteelGator Says:

    I am studying the information provided. I guess I used the word tithe, when I should be using free will offering. I never said any church should be add burden of tithe, tax etc on a believer. I know a guy that is a mult millionaire. He does what he calls the “reverse tithe”. In fact, he should just call it a “free will” offering. He gives 90% of what he makes away to the poor and missionaries. Even though, he uses the incorrect word tithe, I believe he is a cheerful and hilarious giver.

    IC got all over me because I used the wrong word, tithe. I should have used “free will” offering. I believe this is what God wants. I believe the Holy Spirit will guide a believer to the amount, how and when to give.

    The church I belong to does not even take up a collection. They put two boxes at the back of the sanctuary marked “offerings” and as the Lord leads, a believer cheerfully, not out of obligation gives. This is what I was saying above and since I used the legalistic word tithe, I got bruised and battered. ….lol. I really was not that far off what you guys have been saying all along.

    I did cite Matthew 17:24-27 but not to say we must pay the temple tax. I was just making this note.

  45. SteelGator Says:

    IC said…. (And cults are not Christian or “Catholic”, but that’s another topic. The cult of Mary that is called Roman Catholicism doing it first should help some realize it was made up and unbiblically contrived for MONEY. For more on the cult of Mary, see here and here.)

    You know how they raised their money…..Through renting out pews, selling indulgencies and scaring the pants off their parishioners.

  46. IndependentConservative Says:

    Sorry for going at you like that brother, but you know if you say it I can’t assume you used the wrong term 😆 .

    There is s world of difference between the 2 terms as we know.

  47. IndependentConservative Says:

    The TBN pimps are still hoping to get things to that level. They’ve just about got everything except renting pews.

  48. SteelGator Says:

    Apology accepted but I did it to myself. I, just like a lot of Christians, use the name tithe out of habit. We should use offering and I plan to do that in the future.

  49. SteelGator Says:

    I guess someone should contact Meyers, Copeland at el. Maybe, renting pews will pay for the “high dollar” attorneys they are going to need to deal with Senator Grassley.

  50. Airbrush Artist Says:

    I’m not in a church home right now, but God has led my family to give directly to an organization that feeds the homeless and kids. We will continue to give to them until God tells us otherwise. This to Me like Soldier, Is a “True Tithe”.I attended a Christian Church for 27 years,after 6 years without a church Home I still have not found a Church Home since leaving.Oh How so many times I struggled going on Sundays when I felt the pain of what I thought was not giving as I should,even at times too the point of private tears,You see, I’m a Lifetime Financial failure..The church after building a new family Christian Center a year or so later once again called for sacrifices of its members to Pay off the interests on the loan for the Christian Center.As I sat in The sanctuary that Sunday I did not feel led of the Lord to participate as I watched Families and People testify to what they have given up too be part of the call,That was My last Sunday there Its been 7 years and Only One friend called Me,My Sunday school teacher to ask How I was doing,No attempt was made By Elders Deacons or Minister to ask Why after 27 years I was gone so suddenly.The pain remains ,Yes I still struggle with Finances but one thing I realize in spite of My failures, God Still Loves me and there is a Purpose for It All…I believe this scripture of which I’ve found solace should Direct each of Us—-

  51. Airbrush Artist Says:

    2 Corinthians 9:7 (New American Standard Bible)

    7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

  52. IndependentConservative Says:

    That’s sad to hear a “church” didn’t have many that cared enough to see how you’re doing.

  53. ncatina Says:

    Unfortunately, Airbrush and IC, that behavior is more the rule than the exception. It clearly demonstrates that they were more interested in what you can do for them than vice versa as stories from many people on this subject prove time and again.

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